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Q.--Did you ever look into this Rent Roll book to see what amount of work was required to balance it?
A.--No, I did not, to the best of my knowledge. Probably I had it pointed out to me when I spoke to Alves but I did not take any means to see whether his statement was correct or not.
Q.--You did not look to see whether it could be added up in a long time or a short time?
A.--I cannot remember doing so. On the face of it, it must be a long job. It has just taken three weeks to do.
Q.--Mr. Bird and Mr. Thurburn, who are au fait on these matters, are of opinion that it would not take a long time.
A.--Mr. Nicolle and an ordinary Portuguese clerk took three weeks to do it, and they did nothing else, and I believe Mr. Nicolle is pretty quick at this sort of thing.
Q.--Some of the columns ought to be added up during the course of the year so that at the end of the six months all that has to be added up is the amount received, Mr. Bird.
A.--I think it might. I must say in the man's defence that he worked very hard; he was far the best worker in the Treasury, and he often worked over hours.
The Chairman.--Was that not a reason why you should have given him some extra assistance?
A.--I have called attention several times in my report to the fact that he was overworked. My reports will show that I have asked for extra assistance.
Mr. Thurburn.--When we said that the books would not take a long time, we did so on the supposition that the book was kept up.
A.--In former years, he has generally been allowed 18 months to make it up.
The Chairman.--With regard to the taxes. Have you any other book in the office except this "Valuation book"?
A.--There is the day book.
Q.--Are the columns added up?
A.--They ought to be. These for 1890 and 1891 are by Mr. Madar.
Q.--Is Mr. Madar in the office now?
A.--No, he has left.
Q.--As long as this book was not added up, what check had you that all the amounts which were collected have been paid into the Treasury?
A.--They would go by the day book, I suppose, unless the totals were brought in.
Mr. Thurburn.--Is there any possibility of there being defalcations in this book?
A.--The Auditor was much dissatisfied with this system, and I urged Mr. Madar to alter it, but as he was one of the old stereotyped men, he only changed it to a certain extent. It was only when I got a new man that the Auditor's suggestions were carried out as he wished, and the books kept to the satisfaction of the Auditor.
The Chairman.--What we want to know now is, can there have been any defalcations in the taxes?
A.--I don't think there have.
The Auditor has made it his duty to go through the taxes with a view to ascertain if there are any, but he says that the amounts in the ledger practically tally with the valuation table, and he cannot see where there can be any defalcations.
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Mr. Thurburn.--Has he done that for two or three years?
A.--I believe he has, but I could not say for which years.
The Chairman.--There do not appear to be any arrears of taxes?
Q.--No, the book does not show any arrears.
The book is not closed until the arrears are paid; therefore, the book remains sometimes for a year and a half.
Q.--Had Alves anything else to receive except Crown Rent?
A.--No receipts, but a lot of other work.
Q.--How long do you think the Treasury ought to be open and the shroff in attendance for receiving money from the public?
A.--I should think the Treasury ought to be open much the same as Banks are.
Q.--From 10 to 3?
A.--Yes, I should think that would do very well.
Q.--The shroff would have to be in attendance the whole of that time?
A.--He is there from 10 to 4.
Q.--Does he go to the Bank?
A.--Yes, one goes to the Bank.
Q.--Do you know whether it was the shroff who was in charge of the Crown Rent who went to the Bank?
A.--Yes, it was; he goes with a constable.
Q.--I suppose he would be some time at the Bank?
A.--He might be an hour or an hour and a half.
Q.--Who would receive the money in his absence?
A.--Probably the head shroff would receive it.
Q.--We think the shroff who is in charge of the Crown Rent should not go away, that he should be there from 10 to 3. Could that be managed?
A.--Yes.
Q.--If we recommend that all monies should be received only by the shroff, care should be taken that the shroff is always there to receive money.
A.--If Crown Rents were paid during the absence of the second shroff, the receipt would not be granted then and there, but would wait until he came back, when the money would be handed to him.
Q.--But then it goes into the hands of another officer, and you have no check?
A.--The second shroff won't put his chop on the receipt unless he gets the money.
Q.--Mr. Carvalho said that Mr. Nicolle and you had abolished what was called a Telling Cash Book?
A.--The Teller's book.
Q.--What was that?
A.--I should like to look at it.
Q.--Have you now any book which shows your position at the Bank, which shows at any moment what balance you have?
A.--We can always tell that by the Bank Book, which is balanced every week.
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( 54 )
Q.--Did
you ever look into this Rent Roll book to see what amount of work was required to balance it ?
A.-No, I did not, to the best of my knowledge. Probably I had it pointed out to me when I spoke to Alves but I did not take any means to see whether his state-
ment was correct or not.
Q-You did not look to see whether it could be added up in a long time or a short time?
A.-I cannot remember doing so. On the face of it it must be a long job. It has just taken three weeks to do.
Q-Mr. Bird and Mr. Thurburn who are au fait on these matters are of opinion that it would not take a long time.
A.--Mr. Nicolle and an ordinary Portuguese clerk took three weeks to do it and they did nothing else, and I believe Mr. Nicolle is pretty quick at this sort of thing.
Q-Some of the columns ought to be added up during the course of the year so that at the end of the six months all that has to be added
up is the amount received, Mr. Bird.-A lot of the work should be done as they go along.
A. think it might. I must say in the man's defence that he worked very hard; he was far the best worker in the Treasury, and he often worked over hours.
The Chairman.-Was that not a reason why you should have given him some extra assistance ?
A.-I have called attention several times in my report to the fact that he was overworked. My reports will show that I have asked for extra assistance.
Mr. Thurburn.--When we said that the books would not take a long time we did so on the supposition that the book was kept up.
A.-In former years he has generally been allowed 18 months to make it up. The Chairman. With regard to the taxes. Have you any other book in the office except this "Valuation book " ?
A.-There is the day book.
-Are the columns added up?
A.-They ought to be. These for 1890 and 1891 are by Mr. Madar.
Q.-Is Mr. Madar in the office now?
A.-No, he has left.
Q.
As long as this book was not added up what check had you that all the amounts which here as collected have been paid into the Treasury?
appear
A.-They would go by the day book, I suppose, unless the totals were brought in. Mr. Thurburn. Is there any possibility of there being defalcations in this book? A.-The Auditor was much dissatisfied with this system and I urged Mr. Madar to alter it but as he was one of the old stereotyped men he only changed it to a certain It was only when I got a new man that the auditor's suggestions were carried out as he wished, and the books kept to the satisfaction of the Auditor.
extent.
The Chairman.-What we want to know now is, can there have been any defalea- tions in the taxes?
A.-I don't think there have.
The Auditor has made it his duty to go through
the taxes with a view to ascertain if there are any, but he says that the amounts in the ledger practically tally with the valuation table and he cannot see where there can be any defalcations.
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Mr. Thorburn.-Ilas he done that for two or three years A.--1 believe he has, but I could not say for which years.
The Chairman.-There do not appear to be any arrears of taxes? Q-No, the book does not show any arrears.
The book is not closed until the arrears are paid; therefore the book remains sometimes for a year and a half.
Q-Had Alves anything else to receive except Crown Rent?
A. .--No receipts, but a lot of other work.
Q.-How long do you think the Treasury ought to be open and the shroff in attendance for receiving money from the public?
A.-I should think the Treasury ought to be open much the same as Banks are. Q-From 10 to 3?
A. Yes, I should think that would do very well.
4 o'clock now.
It is practically open until
Q-The shroff would have to be in attendance the whole of that time?
A. He is there from 10 to 4.
Q-Does he go to the Bank ?
A.-Yes one goes to the Bank.
Q-Do you know whether it was the shroff who was in charge of the Crown Rent who went to the Bank?
A.-Yes, it was; be
Q.
suppose
goes
with a constable.
he would be some time at the Bank?
-He might be an hour or an hour and a half. Q-Who would receive the money in his absence?
A.--Probably the head shroff would receive it.
Q-We think the shroff who is in charge of the Crown Rent should not go away, that he should be there from 10 to 3. Could that be managed?
A. Yes.
Q-If we recommend that all monies should be received only by the shroff care should be taken that the shroff is always there to receive money.
A.--If Crown Reuts were paid during the absence of the second shroff the receipt would not be granted then and there but would wait until he cune back, when the money would be handed to him,
But then it goes
into the hands of another officer and you have no check?
won't put his chop on the receipt A.-The second shroff for his own protection unless he gets the money.
Q-Mr. Carvalho said that Mr. Nicolle and you had abolished what was called a Telling Cash Book?
A. The tellers book.
Q.
What was that?
A.--I should like to look at it.
Q-Have you now any book which shows your position at the Bank, which shows
at any moment what balance you have?
A.--We can always tell that by the Bank Book which is balanced every week,
694
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